摘要：John Goodrich：菁菁，两位教授刚才讨论到国内市场的实力，其中重点提到了可再生能源领域，中国已经成为全球新能源汽车产业的引领者。你能否再谈谈如何在保持经济增长的同时兼顾环保，实现与生态环境保护目标的平衡？
John Goodrich：菁菁，两位教授刚才讨论到国内市场的实力，其中重点提到了可再生能源领域，中国已经成为全球新能源汽车产业的引领者。你能否再谈谈如何在保持经济增长的同时兼顾环保，实现与生态环境保护目标的平衡？
李菁菁：当然可以。中国对建设人与自然和谐共生的承诺是非常坚定的。例如，作为一名记者，我走遍了中国的各个角落，无论去到哪个省份、城市还是乡村，都能看到醒目的标语：“绿水青山就是金山银山”。这表明中国对推进人与自然和谐共生的高度重视。
但这不仅仅是一个空泛的口号。如果你去中国的一些村庄，你会看到曾经臭气熏天、污染严重的河流。现在，你可以在水里游泳，水质变得非常清澈。所以你可以看到现在的结果，大自然里的具体转变。
我还可以给出一些数据。例如，中国目前可再生能源总装机量占电力总装机的40%。截止2023年年底，中国的森林覆盖率超过25%，年碳汇量达到12亿吨以上。中国在电动汽车市场上也处于领先地位，并且已经连续10年保持领先。
自2012年以来，中国能耗强度累计下降26%。此外，中国设定了宏伟目标：力争碳排放2030年前达到峰值，并在2060年前实现碳中和。这就是中国在共建人与自然和谐共生的认真程度。
John Goodrich：谢谢你，菁菁。让我们进入话题四：中国是否在牺牲环境以换取经济增长？菁菁已经概述了中国如何将经济政策与环保政策相结合的基本事实。但部分外媒报道仍表示二者存在矛盾。比如《纽约时报》的一篇报道中说到：“中国激增的碳排放正在颠覆全球气候政治”。另一篇来自BBC的报道则指出：“中国对混凝土的过度依赖正在损害环境”。
李教授，中国设定的2025年发展预期目标是单位国内生产总值能耗降低3%左右。在保持经济增长的同时实现碳减排究竟有多难？
李成：我认为中国政府的政策中不存在矛盾，恰恰是这两家外媒自身的立场观点存在矛盾。我认为他们对环境保护与经济增长之间的关系缺乏正确理解。我不认为这两者是矛盾的。但确实需要在两者之间取得平衡。在这一点上，中国和欧洲国家的立场非常一致。
西方总强调气候变化对地区的影响，但很讽刺的是，在过去的几个月里，就在特朗普执政期间，美国竟然退出了《巴黎协定》等等。我认为，中国和欧洲始终站在历史正确的一边。
我真心希望中国能做得更多，能承担更多责任，毕竟中国领导人已充分意识到环境保护实际上会通过新能源开发、电动汽车、电池产业等许多其他发展来提振中国经济。
当然，中国仍需加大行动力度，作出更多的承诺。但与此同时，这也恰恰说明，中国的经济增长仍具备政策优化空间。令人欣慰的是，中国政府尽管面临诸多挑战以及经济增速放缓的局面，但仍坚持履行承诺。所以，这就是我的回答。
我希望在这一方面，美国应该纠正其错误，尤其是退出《巴黎协定》这一决定。特朗普总统所谓“气候变化根本不存在”的观点是极其危险的。如果作为一个主要经济大国，美国继续与全球趋势背道而驰，那将是一个严重的问题。
John Goodrich：好的，非常感谢您。王教授，您能否为我们解释一下：在碳排放削减3%的目标下实现今年经济5%的增长，这对今年的经济结构意味着什么？是否会有一些根本性的变化？
王文：首先，我必须说明，我认为以碳排放总量最高为由批评中国是非常不公平的。正如刚刚提到的，一些西方媒体经常因为中国目前是最大碳排放国而进行指责。更重要的是，碳排放量的统计是基于生产者原则而非消费者原则的。
中国是世界工厂，中国的制造业产出占全球近30%。这些产品并不是中国人消费的，但相应的碳排放却被算在了中国人头上。这不公平。所以，当你问到如何平衡经济增长与环境保护时，我认为这对中国固然重要，但绝非易事。
众所周知，当前中国正通过低碳发展建设美丽中国。中国的GDP增速已从十年前的9%放缓到如今的5%，但即便5%的增速也依然可观。如果在15年或10年前来中国，特别是冬季，许多城市都笼罩在雾霾中。但如今，有雾霾的中国城市已大幅减少。
正如菁菁你刚刚提到的，你去过很多村庄，甚至是一些非常贫困或发展不太好的城市。但你总能在各处看到很多公园，城市公园在过去十年里的数量翻了一倍。
此外，菁菁提到的森林资源，中国森林覆盖率已实现倍增，且中国是全球增绿最多的国家。李成教授刚才提到美国总统特朗普退出《巴黎协定》，这已不是第一次了。
美国一直在退出气候协议。但中国始终是协议的践行者。所以，从这些层面来看，西方媒体应该停止将气候变化的原因归咎于中国。
同时，中国确实在努力平衡经济增长与生态保护之间的关系。在这方面，中国仍然比世界上大多数国家做得更好。
对话英文版
John Goodrich: Jingjing, the professors were talking about the strength of the domestic market, and part of that is the renewable energy sector, new energy vehicle where China’s becoming a world leader.
Could you tell us a little bit about the balance between economic growth and being environmentally friendly, while keeping China’s environmental goals?
Li Jingjing：Yeah, sure.China’s commitment in building harmony between humanity and nature is very, very serious. For example, I am a journalist, I travel around China—every corner of China, every village, every city, every province you go, you will see huge signs saying, “Lucid waters and lush mountains are invaluable assets”.
That shows how much we’re paying attention to building harmony. But that’s not an empty logo. If you go to some villages in China, you actually see some rivers that were once stinky and very polluted.
Now, you can swim in. It’s very clear water now. So, you can see the results, you can see the concrete transformations of the nature.
Also I can give you some data. For example, renewable energy now makes up nearly 40 percent of China’s electricity generation. China’s forest coverage hit 25 percent in 2023, absorbing over 1.2 billion tons of carbon dioxide.
China also is leading the EV market for a decade. reducing energy intensity by 26 percent since 2012. Also, China has set, some people say ambitious goals, ambitious commitments, which is to hit peak carbon emission before 2030 and aslo reach carbon neutrality before 2060.
That’s how serious China is in committing in building harmony between nature and humanity.
John Goodrich：Thank you, Jingjing. So that takes us nicely into debate topic 4, which is: Is China sacrificing the environment for economic growth?
Jingjing has outlined the raw facts about how China helps align its economic policies with environmental policies. But there are some headlines from outside China which do suggest there might be a contradiction.
One is from The New York Times: “China's soaring emissions are upending climate politics”, and another from the BBC, saying “Chinese concrete addiction is a phenomenon which is damaging for the environment”.
So, Professor Li, China has a target of reducing an amount of energy it uses to grow the economy by 3 percent in 2025. How hard is it to reduce carbon emissions while still growing the economy?
Li Cheng: I do not see the contradiction of Chinese government policy, but I do see the contradiction with the two foreign media ouotlook themselves.
I think they have a poor understanding of the relationship between environmental protection and economic growth. I think this is not a contradiction.
You do need to do the both. I think in that regard, China and European countries are very much on the same page.
They emphasize, you know, the climate change impact to the region, but ironically, the United States, under Donald Trump in the past couple of months, just withdrew from the Paris Agreement, etc.
I think, again, to see China and Europe on the right side of history. I really hope that China will do more, make more commitments, because the Chinese leadership realizes that environmental protection will actually to certain extent stimulate the Chinese economy with new energy development, with EV, with battery, with many other things.
Now, of course, China should do more, should make more commitments. But at the same time, it also tells us that China’s economic growth still has some room for some policy adjustments.
I’m so glad Chinese government, despite all the challenges or economic slowdown, continues to make commitment. So, that’s my answer to your good question.
I hope in this area, the United States should correct some of its mistakes, especially the way it withdrew from the Paris Agreement. President Donald Trump’s view that there’s no such thing called climate change. This is extremely dangerous.
If the U.S., as a major economic power, continues to go against the global trend.
John Goodrich: Okay, thank you very much. And, Professor Wang, could you paint a picture for us, with the 3 percent target for reduction in emissions, to grow the economy by 5 percent for this year, what does that look like in terms of the structure of the economy? Are there any fundamental changes?
Wang Wen: Well, I have to say first that I think it is very unfair to criticize China for being the country with the highest carbon emissions.
As you mentioned, some Western medias, they often mention and criticize China because China now becomes the highest carbon emitter.
More importantly, carbon emissions are calculated based on the producer principle, not the consumer principle. China is the factory of the world, producing about 30 percent of industrial products of the world.
These industrial products are not consumed by the Chinese, but the carbon emissions are counted on the Chinese. This is unfair.
So, when you ask how to balance economic growth and environmental protection, I think it’s for China, it’s not very easy. We all know that nowadays China is currently pursuing low-carbon development in order to create a better ecology.
China’s GDP has dropped from 9% ten years ago to 5% now, although 5 percent is not bad.
Chinese cities now, as we all know, if you visit China 15 years ago or 10 years ago, in winter especially, a lot of Chinese cities had the smog. But now, fewer Chinese cities can see the smog.
And right now, Jingjing mentioned that you visited a lot of villages, even very poor or not very developed cities. But you can see a lot of parks, urban parks have doubled in the past decade.
Also, Jingjing, you mentioned the forest resources—because countries in China, the forest resources doubled, and also the fastest and largest forest resources grow in the world. Professor Li Cheng right now mentioned Donald Trump’s withdrawal from the Paris Climate Agreement—it’s not the first time.
The United States has always withdrawn from climate agreement. But China has always been an implementer of the agreement.
So, from these perspectives, Western media should stop blaming China for climate change. And also, China is truly striving to balance the relationship between economic growth and ecological protection. In this regard, China is still doing better than most countries in the world.
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