摘要：礼法与秩序——荀子思想国际学术研讨会将于2025年10月29日在山东兰陵举办。会前，“齐鲁访学驻研计划”访问学者、韩国西江大学宗教学系主任、韩国宗教学院院长金在荣接受中国孔子网“汉学中西问”专访，解读荀子礼法思想在当代社会治理、文明对话中的现实意义。
礼法与秩序——荀子思想国际学术研讨会将于2025年10月29日在山东兰陵举办。会前，“齐鲁访学驻研计划”访问学者、韩国西江大学宗教学系主任、韩国宗教学院院长金在荣接受中国孔子网“汉学中西问”专访，解读荀子礼法思想在当代社会治理、文明对话中的现实意义。
Q:Your residency research program focuses on the comparative study of Xunzi and William James. The two represent two typical theoretical paradigms in the Eastern and Western ideological traditions respectively. The former emphasizes "education through ritual and law", while the latter highlights "pragmatism". In your opinion, what resonance points exist in the core of their thoughts, and what essential differences do they present?
中国孔子网：您的驻研计划聚焦荀子与威廉・詹姆斯的比较研究，二者分别代表了东西方思想传统中具有代表性的理论范式，前者注重“礼法教化”，后者强调“实用主义”，您认为二者在思想内核层面存在哪些共鸣点，又呈现出怎样的本质差异？
ANS:Though Xunzi and James lived in differnt life context, their thoughts tended to reveal three commonalities. They both radically perceive experience as the foundation of theory or system of human life construction. For an expositon of reasonaiblity on our world, they attempted to understand and judge the experiential dimension of human life. They did not finish their inquiry on human experience in the phase of understanding and judging. Fruthermore, they tried to articulate the implementaion process of their understanding and judging as the final phase for the resolution of of diverse questions emerging in human life.
They thought that knowing process should be completed into the phase of implementation as doing. This is the distinct acme of their thoughts. They did not remain in an abstract theoretical level but pushed forward to implement or contest it in a life context whether it would operate properly for an authentic life development. In so doing, Xunzi reappropriated the value of ritual and law for the authentic operation of human activity. Similarly, James revalorized the practicality of human life. This point is eventually the momentum for him to begin to inquire a new thought, pragmatism.
The only key difference between them is about the scale for their thoughts. Xunzi is more concerned about the collectivivity of human life but James more about individuality about it. They can be complemented mutually for the further wholistic complehension of our human life and its conditions.
金在荣：尽管荀子与詹姆斯所处的生活语境不同，但其思想却呈现出三大共性。首先，二者都彻底将“经验”视为人类生活建构理论或体系的基础。为阐释世界的合理性，他们都试图理解并评判人类生活的经验维度。其次，他们对人类经验的探究并未止步于理解与评判阶段，而是进一步阐明这些理解与评判的实践过程，将其作为解决人类生活中各类问题的最终环节。
二者都认为，认知过程必须推进到“行”的实践阶段才算完成，这是二者思想最显著的精华部分。他们不满足于停留在抽象的理论层面，而是将理论推向生活语境中去实践、去检验，看其能否切实推动真实生活的发展。正是基于此，荀子重新发掘了“礼”与“法”对人类活动有效运行的价值；同理，詹姆斯也重塑了人类生活“实用性”的重要性，而这一点正是他开创实用主义这一新思想的动因。
二者唯一的核心差异在于思想关怀的范围。荀子更关注人类生活的“群体性”，而詹姆斯则更侧重“个体性”。二者可以相互补充，助力我们更全面地理解人类生活及其存在状态。
Q:The modern transformation of traditional thoughts is a core issue concerned by the academic community. How do you balance the traditional core of Xunzi's thoughts and their modern interpretation in your research?
中国孔子网：传统思想的现代转化是学界关注的核心议题，您在研究中如何处理荀子思想的传统内核与现代诠释之间的平衡？
ANS:Xunzi’s thoughts are timely suggestive. His thoughts expose us a psycho-spiritual guide line. It is very worhwhile to pay attention to them in the world of AI. Avove all his thoughts would tell persuasively the indispensibility of struggling (suffering or painfulness) experience as one of key sources for the constrcutive understanding of human life. It should not be ignored or marginalized. It is the unchangelble condition of human life irrespective of the difference among regions, classes, genders, times and so on. It is constant in the East and the West and beyond wherever human life exists!It is a constantl human condition for the authentic improvement of human life. Without it, the true reality of human life will not be revealed.
The age of AI does tend to proclaim this struggling (suffering and painfulness) experience as one of the most useless things. Yes, it should not be slow to recognize the achievement of AI! It has done a great job solving many problems in our current human life. Nevertheless, it is time to reflect the Xunzian virtue of “humility” in the age of AI. It is really time to listen to the silent witness of human histoy that any human life cannot avoid encountering the human struggling experience in its journey in this glove.
金在荣：荀子的思想具有鲜明的时代启示意义，为我们提供了心灵精神层面的指引，在人工智能时代尤其值得关注。最具说服力的一点是，荀子的思想阐明了“奋斗（苦难或痛苦）经验”作为建构性理解人类生活的关键源泉之一，具有不可替代性。这种经验不应被忽视或边缘化，它是人类生活的恒定条件，不受地域、阶层、性别、时代等差异的影响。无论在东方还是西方，无论人类生活在何处，它都普遍存在，是人类实现真实自我提升的永恒前提。缺少这一经验，人类生活的真实本质便无从彰显。
人工智能时代往往将这种奋斗（苦难与痛苦）经验视为无用。诚然，我们不应忽视人工智能所取得的成就，它确实为解决当下人类生活的诸多问题作出了巨大贡献。但与此同时，在人工智能时代，我们亟需重拾荀子所倡导的“谦逊” 之德，亟需聆听人类历史的无声见证。人生在世，注定无法回避奋斗的历程。
Q:The International Symposium on Xunzi's Thoughts will be held in Lanling, Shandong on October 29. This grand event has gathered well-known scholars in relevant fields at home and abroad. At the symposium, what phased achievements or core viewpoints on the research of Xunzi's thoughts will you focus on sharing?
中国孔子网：荀子思想国际学术研讨会将于10月29日在山东兰陵召开，此次盛会汇聚了海内外相关领域的知名学者。在研讨会上，您将重点分享哪些关于荀子思想研究的阶段性成果或核心观点？
ANS:Personally I am very honored to participate in this important conference. I am going to share my limited research materials in the conference. As you may know, the Joseon Dynasy was maintained for almost more than 500 years (1392-1910) within the framework of Confucian Ideology. As a Korean humble academician, I have a qurioisty why it was collapsed. What was the real problem in the Dynasty? Diverse scholars would have attempted to inquire about them. Whenever I read their researches, I felt something missing though I did not knwo what it would be. Vaguely I felt it. This is my first concern about Xunzi’s thoughts.
In this conference I will attempt to identify the key problem of Joseon Dynasty in relation to Xunzi’s perspective. From the early period of Joseon Dystany, it would be established on the basis of the Neo-Confucian Ideology. The more it would evolve, it would be further emphasied on the ideolgy in every relams of the Dynasty. Nevertheless the reality of the Joseon Dynasty would not correspond fully to the imlication of its main Ideology. Eventually it began to expose radically the discrepancy between the reality of Joseon Dynasty and its Ideology. This discrepancy would be a starting stage for the Dynasty to be collapsed. The dilution state of Aristocrats’ and other classes’ spirit on grapping on the Confucian Ideology in the Dynasty was eventually formed.
If the alternative ideological frame work like the case of Xunzi would be complemented in the Dynasty, the fate of the Dynasty would be very different. But is it posible for Xunzi’s perspective to be adopted as the key ideological source of the Dynasty in the situation of regarding him as a “heretic”? I will share about this hypothetical issue in the conference.
金在荣：我个人深感荣幸能参与此次重要会议，并将在会上分享自己研究浅见。众所周知，朝鲜王朝（1392-1910 年）以儒家思想为框架存续了近 500 余年。作为一名韩国学者，我一直对其灭亡的原因充满好奇：这个王朝真正的问题出在哪里？许多学者都曾对此展开探究。我在研读这些研究成果时，总感觉有所欠缺，虽一时难以明确，但这种直觉始终存在。这便是我关注荀子思想的最初契机。
在此次会议上，我将尝试从荀子思想的视角剖析朝鲜王朝灭亡的核心问题。朝鲜王朝建立之初便以新儒家思想（理学）为根基，且随着王朝发展，这一思想在社会各个领域的渗透不断加深。然而，王朝的现实状况却与主流思想的内涵严重不符，最终导致思想与现实的矛盾彻底爆发——这正是王朝走向覆灭的开端。此后，无论是贵族阶层还是其他社会阶层，对儒家思想的坚守精神逐渐淡化。
我不禁思考：若当时朝鲜王朝能以荀子思想作为替代性的思想框架，对主流思想进行补充，其命运是否会截然不同？但问题在于，在荀子被视为“异端” 的社会背景下，其思想是否有可能成为王朝的核心思想来源？我将在会议上围绕这一假设性问题展开分享。
Q:With "ritual, Law and Order" as its core theme, this seminar not only echoes the core essence of Xunzi's thoughts but also closely aligns with the practical needs of contemporary social governance. How do you understand the theoretical value and contemporary significance of this theme?
中国孔子网：本次研讨会以“礼法与秩序”为核心主题，既呼应了荀子思想的核心要义，也紧扣当代社会治理的现实需求。您如何理解这一主题的理论价值与时代意义？
ANS:Yes, the conference theme, “Ritual, Law and Order” is very relevant to the implementation of contemporary social governance. These three items are not separated but more intertwined and mutually intersperced. Ritual cannot exist without Law and Order. The others would be the same. Xunzi’s case would be very unique for the exposition on the relationship among these three items. In his thoughts, Ritual is not only the source of Law and Order but also expressions of Law and Order in the performing process of Ritual. Ritual cannot be properly or farely implemented without the assistance of law and order. Law and Oder cannot be sustained lively without the ongoing performance of Ritual. They are all circulatively interacting and sustaning each other. This is ongoing process throgh which all human societies could be not only sustained lively but also flourished abundantly.
金在荣：是的，“礼法与秩序” 这一会议主题与当代社会治理的实践需求高度契合。“礼”“法”“秩序”三者并非相互割裂，而是紧密交织、相互渗透的关系。礼的存在离不开法与秩序，法与秩序的存在同样也离不开礼。荀子对三者关系的阐释极具独特性。在他的思想中，礼不仅是法与秩序的源头，在礼的践行过程中，也蕴含着法与秩序的内涵。若无法律与秩序的支撑，礼便无法得到恰当、公正的推行；反之，若缺乏礼的持续践行，法律与秩序也难以保持活力。三者形成循环互动、相互维系的关系，正是通过这一动态过程，人类社会才能实现存续与繁荣。
Q:As the hometown of Xunzi, Lanling has deeply explored Xunzi's thought of "Emphasizing rites and law" by integrating it with village conventions, thus developing a new path for rural governance that conforms to local realities. From the perspective of religious psychology, is there a mutually reinforcing psychological mechanism between the people's recognition of "ritual" and their compliance with "law"? What reference value does this psychological mechanism hold for rural governance and even grassroots social governance?
中国孔子网：作为荀子故里，兰陵深度挖掘荀子“隆礼重法”思想，与村规民约紧密融合并付诸实践，开拓出契合本地实情的乡村治理新路径。从宗教心理学视角来看，民众对“礼”的认同与对“法”的遵守之间，是否存在相互促进的心理机制？这种心理机制对乡村治理乃至基层社会治理有何借鉴价值？
ANS:As I mentioned in the above, rites and law cannot exist respectively without other. They are all the times intertwined and interrelated. Rites are the healthy resources for law to be implemented more harmoniously or properly. Law cannot exist humanely or farefully if it would not be related to rites. Law should be checked about itself with the assistance of rites whether it would forget the fundamental value or purpose of its existence for human life. At the same time, rites should also be checked whether they would be adquately performed in relation to the proceedure.
Generallly rites and law would be rooted into the human’s relation to the world of spirits beyond this world. But, in the case of Xunzi, the meaning of rites and law are profoundly fresh and differnt. He did not have much interest whether rites and law would be related to the world of spirits and its influence to the human world. His keen concern is the affective function of rites and law themselves in the human life. Especially, he paid attention to the emotional dimension with that the proceedure of rites and law would stimulate or touch regularly the inner aspect of human life. The human life in community, whether it would follow the transcendent or not, needs “a washing or healing place” for the resolution of diverse anxieties and difficuties in the commuity participant’s mind and heart.
In this sense, Xunzi’s insights are explicity relevant to the context of village. Rites and law are the foundational value for the flourshing of village life and its sustenance. Rites and law should not be perceived as the past or the season-off components but as the living fountain revealing still a distinct efficasy even in the contemporary governance of the villiage life. Actually if they function well, they are the champion markers for the sound and healthy governance of the village life. The only difference between the living village and the dead depends upon the magnitude of emotional touch that rites and law stimulate to the members of the villiage for the bonding sustenance of their community. In other words, the living village itself is spiritual/religious community emboding solidarity and fraternity!
金在荣：如我之前所言，礼与法相辅相成，始终相互交织、密不可分。礼是法律得以更和谐、更恰当推行的有益助力；若脱离礼的精神，法的推行便难以体现人文关怀与公平正义。法需要借助礼的精神来审视自身，避免偏离其为人类生活服务的根本价值与目的；与此同时，礼的践行也需要依据法的规范流程进行检验。
通常而言，礼与法的根源可追溯至人类与超验精神世界的关联，但荀子对礼与法的阐释却呈现出全新的深刻内涵。他并不关注礼与法是否与精神世界相关联，以及这种关联对人类世界的影响，而是聚焦于礼与法本身在人类生活中所发挥的情感功能。他尤其注重礼与法的践行过程，认为这一过程能持续触动人类内心的情感层面。无论是信奉超验力量与否，社群生活中的个体都需要一个“净化与疗愈的空间”，以消解内心的焦虑与困境。
从这个角度而言，荀子的思想与乡村治理语境高度契合。礼与法是乡村存续与繁荣的核心价值根基，不应被视为过时或阶段性的元素，即便在当代乡村治理中，它们依然具有鲜活的生命力与独特效用。事实上，若礼与法能充分发挥作用，便是乡村治理健康有序的最佳标志。乡村是充满活力还是停滞僵化，关键在于礼与法对村民情感的触动程度——这种触动维系着社群的凝聚力。换言之，富有活力的乡村本身就是一个蕴含团结与友爱精神的精神社群。
Q:As an important spiritual resource in the East Asian cultural circle, Xunzi's thoughts also exert a profound influence on Korean society. Combining the cultural context of South Korea, could you talk about whether Xunzi's thoughts have extended from the field of academic research to the levels of folk life and social governance? In your view, which core concepts in Xunzi's thoughts can provide practical and effective theoretical support and practical paths for contemporary local governance?
中国孔子网：荀子思想作为东亚文化圈的重要精神资源，在韩国社会也有着深远影响。您能否结合韩国的文化语境，谈谈荀子思想是否已从学术研究领域延伸至民间生活与社会治理层面？在您看来，荀子思想中的哪些核心理念能够为当代地方治理提供切实有效的理论支撑与实践路径？
ANS:Xunzi’s thoughts are not sufficiently researched yet in Korea. Xunzian scholars are not main stream of Confucianism according to my understanding. Relatively they are very few comparing to the Mongzian and other scholars. However, recently young schoalrs trained in Korea or other foreign academic institures are begining to pay attention actively to the importance of Xunzi’s thoughts in contemporary society. Their methodological issues and theoretical perspectives are quite diverses. Some are explicitly expositing it in terms of analytical philosophy and some more comparatively in relation to the various displines such as religious studies, philosophy, history, literature, education, psychology, politics, social welfare, of humanities and social sciences.
Personally I have thought that Xunzi’s thoughts should be seriously revalorized in the contemporary scholarship of Confucianism in Korea. One thing should be revisited in Xinzi’s thoughts. The most important one is the resotoration of the ritual dimension in contemporary civil society. To Xunzi, ritual is not one of necessary components for the sustenance of the human life and its community. It is not only the foundation of other components but also a spiritual matrix for the flurishing human life and its community. It provides a higher view point or platform for the self-correction process of the human life and its community. Still these insights in Xunizi’s thoughts would be valuable in contemporary society in Korea!
金在荣：目前，荀子思想在韩国的研究尚不充分。在我看来，韩国儒学研究界中，荀子研究学者并非主流，与孟子及其他儒家学者的研究者相比，数量相对稀少。不过，近年来，一批在韩国本土或海外学术机构接受过训练的青年学者，开始积极关注荀子思想在当代社会的重要价值，他们的研究方法与理论视角也呈现出多元化特征：部分学者运用分析哲学的方法对荀子思想进行阐释，另有学者则将其与宗教学、哲学、历史学、文学、教育学、心理学、政治学、社会福利等人文社科领域的不同学科进行比较研究。
我个人认为，在当代韩国儒学研究中，荀子思想的价值亟待重估，其中最值得关注的一点，便是在当代公民社会中重建“礼” 的维度。在荀子看来，礼不仅是维系人类生活与社群存续的必要元素，更是其他一切社会元素的根基，是人类生活与社群实现繁荣的精神母体。它为人类生活与社群的自我修正提供了更高层面的视角与平台。即便在当代韩国社会，荀子的这些思想洞见依然具有重要价值。
Q:The academic community generally holds that Xunzi's thoughts possess prominent practicality and strong practical guiding significance. How do you view the potential of this trait for cross-civilization communication in the context of globalization? Combining your academic practice of promoting the integration of Korean and East Asian themes into the global discourse, in which aspects do you think efforts should be strengthened in the interpretation and dissemination of Xunzi's thoughts to make them an important topic in global academic dialogue?
中国孔子网：学界普遍认为荀子思想具有突出的实践性、极强的现实指导性。您如何看待这种特质在全球化背景下的跨文明传播潜力？结合您推动韩国及东亚主题融入全球话语的学术实践，您认为荀子思想要成为全球学术对话的重要议题，需在哪些方面加强阐释与传播？
ANS:I think that Xunzi’s thoughts would be contributing two things for cross-civilization communication in our current times. First of all, they warn us not to fall into the disputes of the abstract conceptualism for the development of cross-civilization communication skills or grammers. Instead, his thoughts suggested a realistic priciple that cross-civilization communication should be fundamentally based upon the awarnesse to our common humanity and its real experience irrespective of the difference of cultures and belief systems. In this sense, Xunzi was reasonable and rational. Second, his thoughts did not emphasize the normativity of classicalism ignoring its contextual sensibilities and its application into others. This aspect would be a good guideline for the implementaion of a skillful dialogic grammer in one’s involvement with cross- civilization communication with others.
Concerning about the interpretaion and the dissemination of Xunzi’s thoughts in a global academic community, I think the most distintive part of his thoughts would be the emotional efficacy of rituals to the human subjects and their communities. This point should be expanded deeply on the basis of the critical examination on his works. In additon, it should be compared to contemporary reseaches on ritual and emotion. In this comparision, Xunzi’s creative insights would be further discovered. The more we compare his thoughts to contemporary researches, the more we come to realize that Xunzi would be one of the ancient defending champions even on our contemporary academic “ring.”
金在荣：我认为，在当下的文明交流互鉴中，荀子思想可发挥两方面的重要作用。首先，它警示我们，在构建文明交流的方法与规范时，不应陷入抽象概念的争论。荀子思想提出了一条现实原则：无论文化与信仰体系存在何种差异，文明交流的根本基础，应是对人类共同本质及其真实经验的认知。从这一角度而言，荀子的思想体现出理性与合理性。其次，荀子思想不推崇脱离现实语境、忽视应用价值的古典规范主义，这一点可为开展灵活有效的文明对话提供重要指引。
关于荀子思想在全球学术界的阐释与传播，我认为其最独特的价值在于“礼”对个体及社群所产生的情感效用。我们应在深入研读荀子著作的基础上，对这一观点进行深度拓展，并将其与当代关于礼仪与情感的研究成果进行比较。通过这种比较，荀子思想中的创新性洞见将得到进一步发掘。我们对二者的比较越深入，就越能意识到：即便在当代学术“竞技场”上，荀子依然是古代思想家中的佼佼者。
Q:Against the backdrop of current civilizational conflicts and order reconstruction, what unique theoretical value do the humanistic nature of "rule by ritual" and the normative nature of "rule of law" have for the coexistence among civilizations? What enlightenment do they offer for solving the problems of "value conflicts" and "lack of rules" in global governance?
中国孔子网：在当前文明冲突与秩序重构的背景下，“礼治”的人文性与“法治”的规范性，对文明间共处有何独特理论价值？对解决全球治理中的“价值冲突”与“规则缺失”问题，又具有怎样的启示作用？
ANS:Ritual and law are very necessary for the sustenance of the human society. It does not matter whether it would be small or big. Every human society would have been evolved in accordance with the “ruling by ritual” and the “rule of law”. They are fudamental backbones for the flourshing development of our human society. In analogy, the function of “ruling by ritual” is like that of mother. It plays an archetypal role to restore or nurture the frail part of the human society. At the same time, the human society needs the “rule of law” for the implementation of its justice and fairness . Its role is like that of father. It is more concerned about fair judgment and decision rather than the mothering of the human society.
For the healty society,the “ruling by ritual” and the “rule of law” should be functioned properly. If the former would be too much emphasized, the society could not overcome its challenges concretely. In reverse, if the latter would be emphasized, the society would be like a harsh, cold battleground losing our humanity. Recently our current world expose a live testmony about it! In the name of justice and fairness, so many ugly things happens.
In this unbalansed situation, it seems to be very conventional to hear the phrases of “ rule of law” in the diverse daily news and social media covering political agenda, global conflics, international relations, trade war and so on. However, it is very rare to hear about the phrases of the “ruling by ritual”in world news and social media.
The proprtionality of the two pillars have been extremely unbalanced. The fathering dimension of the “rule of law” is thickly spreading in our contemporary world. Meanwhile, the mothering dimensioin for the restoration of the fraility of our human condition would have been weakened in our global world excep for a few cases. If this dimension would not be fully recovered, it would not be possible to materialize our human solidarity for the implementaion of the global governance. It is really high time to reappropriate this dimension!
金在荣：礼与法是维系人类社会存续的核心要素，无论社会规模大小，任何人类社会的演进都离不开“礼治”与“法治” 的共同作用——二者是人类社会实现繁荣发展的根本支柱。若以比喻说明：“礼治”的功能如同母亲，扮演着原型性角色，负责修复与滋养社会脆弱的部分；而“法治”则承担着维护社会公平正义的职责，其功能如同父亲，更侧重于作出公正的评判与决策，而非对社会进行“滋养”。
一个健康的社会，需要“礼治”与“法治”的协同发力、均衡运作。若过度强调“礼治”，社会将难以切实应对各类挑战；反之，若一味偏重 “法治”，社会将沦为冰冷严苛的 “战场”，丧失人文温度。当下的世界正印证着这一点：在 “公平正义” 的名义下，诸多丑恶现象不断上演。
在这种失衡的格局下，“法治”一词频繁出现在各类新闻报道与社交媒体中，涉及政治议题、全球冲突、国际关系、贸易争端等诸多领域；而 “礼治” 一词却在国际舆论场中极为罕见。
这两大支柱的平衡已被严重打破：“法治”所代表的“父性” 维度在当代世界不断扩张，而“礼治”所代表的、用于修复人类生存脆弱性的“母性”维度，除少数地区外，在全球范围内已大幅弱化。若这一维度无法得到充分恢复，人类便难以凝聚共识，全球治理的目标也无从实现。当下，正是重拾 “礼治” 维度的关键时刻！
来源：中国孔子网
