摘要：Europe must avoid getting "stuck" in a U.S.-centric framework when dealing with China and instead develop its own strategic indepe

Europe must avoid getting "stuck" in a U.S.-centric framework when dealing with China and instead develop its own strategic independence, says Carsten Boyer Thogersen, a former Danish diplomat who has worked with China for over 45 years.

In this wide-ranging interview with "Diplomacy Talk," Thogersen— who served as consul-general in both Shanghai and Guangzhou — says China and the EU have many common concerns and challenges, with numerous areas for beneficial cooperation.

However, Thogersenstresses that Western misunderstandings and a confrontational tone can hinder cooperation. To counter this, he encourages more Europeans to experience China in person, especially now that they can easily visit the country under its expanded visa-free and transit policies.

Thogersenalso discusses demographic shifts, global trade frameworks such as the World Trade Organization(WTO), and the need for cultural understanding and collaboration in anincreasinglymultipolar world.

Following is the transcript of the interview.

Diplomacy Talk: You have lived and worked in China for many years and seen its changes up close. What changes have impressed you the most? And how would you describe China to people in Europe?

Carsten Boyer Thogersen: It's 50 years ago that I first came toChina, so I have seen this transformation of China over the last 50 years. which aspects did impress me the most? I think it's difficult to say because it's not only one aspect of China. It is a comprehensive change in China and of course in terms of wealth and economy, but also in social welfare, in health care, in education, technology, innovation, number of cultural performances. So, it is the whole life and society of China which has changed.

And also, I think what has happened in China over the last 50 years is what we in Europe used 150 years to experience. So, China has very speedy and fast development over the last 50 years. I would say that in many places in China, in the first-tier and second-tier cities, the way of living and services and so on is just like you see in large European cities.

Diplomacy Talk: You have represented Denmark and the EU for over 45 years, including as consul-general in Shanghai and Guangzhou. How have you seen the relationship between China and the EU, and particularly Denmark, change over time? What key moments stand out?

Carsten Boyer Thogersen: Today almost in all aspects of society, we have cooperationbetween China and the EU. In 1975, the annual trade between China and EU was $2 billion a year. Today, ourtrade between EU and China is also $2 billion, but each day, so we have really expanded our cooperation.

I think maybe one key moment was in 2001, when China entered theWTO. That was really a decision which changed and expanded the cooperation between China and EU, and by the way, also China and the rest of the world.

Diplomacy Talk: You have said the EU needs to build stronger partnerships beyond just focusing on China-U.S. rivalry. How can Europe avoid getting stuck in a U.S.-centered approach while aiming for more independence in its foreign policy?

Carsten Boyer Thogersen: That's a tough question. Now, because of the new American president, who has changed or seems to change some of the fundamental policies between Europe and United States since the World War II, we are really thinking very deep in Europe.

One thing is that the U.S. has been our security guarantee for 75 years. And most of the Western European countries are members of the NATO. Maybe this will change. We have not really built up our ownmilitary forces in Europe over many years. Now we should change this.

Europe should really identify the needs for Europe to have independent thinking and an independent strategy, vis-a-vis, the rest of the world. And we need a lot of talk and discussion in our own family in Europe and find out how we can keep Europe as an integrated and safe place.

I could add another aspect. That is our future relation to Africa. We're not talking much about Africa in Europe, but more than 100 years ago, the population of Europe was 25% of the total population of the world. The population of Africa at that time was 8%. Today the population in Europe is only around 8% of the total world population, Africa more than 1/3. So we have a huge continent south of Europe, which will become larger and larger in the population. Our population in Europe will be smaller and smaller. We have to consider howwe cancooperate with African countries, which arealsovery diverse. We have not even started to talk about this, although it's an obvious challenge we have. So, all in all, in Europe, we need internal cooperation. We need good wise leaders to suggest good solutions.

Diplomacy Talk: What are some common misconceptions about China among young people in Europe? And what actions and initiatives would you prioritize to help young Europeans and Chinese better understand each other?

Carsten Boyer Thogersen: Not only among young people, but in Europe in general, there are a number of misconceptions about China. And I think following and seeing EU, Europe and Chinese relations over 50 years, the European attitudes towardChinachanged from this side to this side. Basically,good cooperation between the U.S. and China was changed in 2018 when China specifically was made the No.1enemy of the United States. And this narrative has been very strong and has stayed on. And then the number of visits from Europe to China also decreased. So, there wasalso an absenceof direct communication between Europeans and China. So,the remedy is for the Chinese to use the "secret weapon."

Diplomacy Talk: What is that?

Carsten Boyer Thogersen: It's to make sure that a lot of foreign people have the possibility to visit China. I've seen this for so many years that people coming to China for the first time, they are surprised.And then some people they would be angry and said, why didn't you tell me China was like that?I would say I have told you all the time, butseeing is believing.

Now the new visa regulations the Chinese government has made to many countries have madeforeign people have better opportunity to come to have a look for themselves. This is a simple thing to do and a very practical thing to do.

We have a number of specific misunderstandings between the East and West, but also, we have some fundamental misunderstandings or differences between European culture and Chinese tradition and culture. China is a different culture. And there are traditions, maybe which European people really don't see.

One tradition in China is the examination gaokao. And this goes back to the Chinese dynasties that every Chinese hasthe possibility to take part in an examination and then come into a government system and based upon merits, go up within the system. This is a very democratic principle, which we don't see in my part of the world.Their education is often given to those with money and income. And positions are given in a different way. So, I think this is a very important principle in China. And also, it is a principle by tradition.

Another principle also by tradition is that if you look at government work in China at the local provincial level and central level, when you have very big and important decisions, these decisions are usually only taken if there is a broad consensus, a large majority is supporting these decisions. If there are no consensus and large majority, well, maybe no decision is taken. But when there is a large majority in consensus for a decision, this means that you preserve stability in the country. And in a country the size of China, stability is so important.

And if you have tiny majorities make difficult decisions, then you will make internal fights. They will usually never be very good for the stability of a country. And just one example, we have the United Kingdom when they left the European Union(EU). We were very unhappy about that in the EU. But it was a very very tiny minority and in Britain who, by the rules, decided that.

I think Europe should go on with our principles and China with their principles. And maybe remember the Chinese philosopher Confucius. He said 和而不同,meaning that harmony and diversity goes very well together. We don't have to be the same thing. We can be different and enjoy this diversity.

Diplomacy Talk: You once said people need to visit China to really understand it. What are the best ways for Europeans to get a true understanding of China?

Carsten Boyer Thogersen: It's a basic truth: to see once is better than just being hearing, hearing, hearing. It doesn't matter much whether it is to Northeast China or Mid China or South China. They're all different, these places, but it's Chinese people living in all these places. So, yes,foreign people should come and visit China.

Diplomacy Talk: You've said Western media's confrontational reporting on China could mislead foreign policy and hurt the EU and the U.S. in the long run. What are the biggest misunderstandings or sources of tension between the EU and China right now? And how can European policy makers better understand China?

Carsten Boyer Thogersen: I think we have questions within trade and that is normal.That's also the reason why we have the WTO. We have a framework within which we can negotiate these things. And we need a platform to discuss these things, because there're a lot of details and things to be talked about by experts.

But I would also say that now we have this confrontational atmosphere in the world. When we have such a situation, the arguments and the logicsometimes become wrong. And there are a lot of wrong things, incorrect things being said in the discussion. And this is not a fruitful atmosphere. And I think many people regret this confrontational atmosphere.

Therefore, I very much appreciate theglobal initiatives which China has put forward. And they are basically overlooked in the West.

I would just make a comparison that when I startedstudying Chinese, the Chinese opening up policy was announced. And if you look at that policy at the announcement, people in the West would be shaking their heads. The policy was very vague and not very clear. And the Chinese leader at that time, Deng Xiaoping,said that China would reach a GDP in 2000, fourtimes bigger than in 1978.People were laughing.But the point is here that there was a determination, there was a long-term goal and a flexible road to that goal.And see what this goal has created for China over 40 years.

And you can also take the example of the Belt and Road Initiative.When it was launched in 2013,it was a vision andan idea. And many people will also say:"oh yes, but so what?" But actually, over the last 12 years, a large number of projects with partners in different parts of the world have been made.

So, yes, theglobal initiatives. They are a vision, an idea, but their basic idea is peaceful international cooperation. And this is very helpful. And this is what we need in the world today. That's whyalso from the Western side, we should pay attention to these global initiatives.

Diplomacy Talk: As the world moves from one superpower to several, how do you see China and Europe cooperating on global issues?

Carsten Boyer Thogersen: The EU and China, we have a lot of common concerns and common challenges and a lot of areas where we can cooperate in a beneficial way for both parties. We have the issue of climate change and we have the development of green technology.

And maybe these days, a common concern is to preserve the existing international institutions and the international structure which was developed after the World War II. We have mentioned the WTO, which is a very important platform with its rules to discuss common issues on trade.But because of the lack of judges being sent from one particular big country,the WTO is not functioning well for the time being. And there are similar issues in other international organizations. This is a common concern that we have in Europe and China.

There are many areas where we can cooperate and we should do that. Then there are areas where we have different views and maybe we should put them aside and leave them for another time to try to solve them.

Presenter: Gao Anming

General supervisor: Wang Xiaohui

Producer: Li Xiaohua

Production supervisor: Zhang Liying

Editors: Zhang Ruomeng, Zhang Heling, Jiao Yuan, Lyu Yiyi, Xia Fangting

Produced by chinadiplomacy.org.cn

来源：中国网一点号